Photo by Chrissie Kremer

This is Dan Morrell, host of Skydeck.

Susan Wilner Golden (PMD 59, 1990) had a very frustrating experience caring for her aging mother. With her background as a graduate of the HBS Program for Management Development and a doctorate of science and health services from Harvard’s School of Public Health, even she couldn’t successfully navigate the health care system for her mom.

It set her on a path of discovery that led to not only a better understanding of the challenges of eldercare but also of the opportunity afforded by increasing lifespans—and why companies needed a more thoughtful strategy for addressing these consumers.

Today, Golden is an expert on innovation and entrepreneurial opportunities created by the new longevity and teaches this at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, where she directs the dciX Impact Initiative at the Stanford Distinguished Careers Institute.

This episode of Skydeck Live is an excerpt from a conversation recorded at Golden’s recent Reunion, where she and I spoke about her new book, Stage [Not Age]: How to Understand and Serve People Over 60, the Fastest Growing, Most Dynamic Market in the World.

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Dan Morrell: You know, you spoke [about] how there was previously this idea of life in three stages, right, learn, earn, and retire. The way that you break it down this book is into five quarters. Can you outline that framework for everyone and talk about what's entailed in those five quarters?

Susan Wilner Golden: Okay. And first, to warn you, I know that's funky math. There's only four quarters.

DM: [laughs]

SWG: Um, but this was the paradigm and framework I came up with. It was too hard to think of life any longer in this three-stage life. So I came up with 18 stages, and there probably are going to be more. But these were the ones that I could capture in talking to lots of people. And I try to bucket them. And so, I came up with the quarter concept.

The first quarter is about starting. This is when you're going to school. When you're very little, you're starting to learn to talk, walk, read. Then you're going to high school. And you're probably starting college, and then, you're starting to work. So the starting quarter. And that's somewhere I would say if you want to use age ranges between 0 and 30. It gets extended a little bit each year, it seems.

DM: [laughs]

SWG: And the second quarter, I began to think about is the stages of when you're building financial security, you're starting families. You might be starting to do some caregiving. You might be prioritizing wellness. And I call this the growing quarter. You're building a life, basically. And that would be anywhere from 25 to 50ish, put it that way. But it's a concept of these are the years you're growing. And then, you come to a point in life where you're reflecting. You're reprioritizing. You're rethinking what you want to do. And I call these the renaissance years. And that could be anywhere in your 50s all the way to your 80s. But I call it the "R" years because you're really relaunching, rethinking what you want to do.

And then, the fourth quarter is what I would call sort of the legacy years, where you're planning and understanding at some point, you're going to be ending this wonderful life you've had, planning for end of life. And there is a whole need for that. And then thinking about your own legacy. But that could extend now well into your hundreds. And that, I call the fifth quarter because we don't really know what it looks like. People are just starting to live much longer. And with enhanced science, they're predicting babies born today are going to live to 120.

We don't know what those extra stages are going to be like because people could be living vibrantly in that extra quarter. So it was a framework to begin thinking about life not just in three stages but in a multi-stage life that's not sequential like learn, earn, retire. You will have continuous learning throughout this much longer lifespan—in your 20s, for sure. I came back to school in my 30s here. I went back to school in my 60s for DCI.

And you will be a continuous learner if you're going to be living a 100-year life. So I wanted a framework that helped you understand both from a personal standpoint. But then, I began to think about this from a business standpoint: we need a multi-stage definition around life.

DM: Yeah. And if we think about it from a business standpoint and we look at those quarters, I mean from market approach, they're not all monolithic, right? So how do we think about effective segmentation for those groups. And what does it look like in practice? Who's been doing it well?

SWG: So segmentation traditionally was around demographics.

DM: Right.

SWG: It was age. Race. Education turns out to be the most important predictor of your health span going forward. And for too long, people just looked at everybody in the same state, the retirement stage or in those years as everybody being the same. But there's great diversity in aging as we've said. You can have a 40-year-old and an 80-year-old doing absolutely the same things in life, working, being vibrant.

And I began to look at companies that were doing this in a very interesting way. And one that I profiled was Merrill Lynch. And they realized that, yes, their clients are aging. But that's not a problem, whereas a lot of companies were always looking at their customers were aging and aging out. They saw that as an opportunity to rethink how are they going to develop their wealth management products. And they developed seven life priorities. Basically, seven stages that their clients could tell them that they were in and what were their priorities at that moment.

And it related to finance. It could relate to work. It could work to charitable giving. It could relate to caregiving. They developed a whole framework. And then developed tools to assess the life priorities of their clients. And then, develop portfolio tools and management towards that. And that was a real groundbreaker in the way they offered their services. And then, they went even further. They hired a financial gerontologist—which I don't know if many of you had heard of, but I hadn't until to that time.

DM: I have not.

SWG: There's a whole degree program in that at USC—to help train all their wealth advisors and their employees about how to assess life priorities and create portfolios that match the needs and stages that their clients were in. So this was a stage approach. And then, they went even further. And then, they offered this all to their own employees and developed much more extensive elder care benefits and family leave policies, understanding that people are going to be living this multi-stage life course. So they were one of the first to implement this approach.

DM: And the Merrill Lynch example stuck with me. Financial services sort of makes sense. But the one that I thought was really an outstanding example was Warby Parker, because that is a very different brand, you know. Can you talk about the example of Warby Parker and how they did a good job with their longevity strategy?

SWG: As you all know, they are the hipster brand for young people for eyeglasswear. They have a frictionless system. And it's really taken off. And then they began to realize that there is this other demographic that they could be going after. And there's a whole industry around progressive lenses. And if anybody has purchased them, they're very, very expensive. And they wanted to disrupt that as well.

But what they recognize is that the older customer wanted the hipster brand, they wanted the same frames. They did not want their frames screaming older. They wanted to look just like their children or grandchildren. But it just happened to have the progressive lenses that they needed at a lower cost and an easy accessibility. And now, over 50% of their revenue derives from progressive lenses.

[music]

DM: You also talk about the importance in the book about companies offering multi-generational products. And what's the phrase too? There's a stealth. Is it a stealth-

SWG: Yeah.

DM: ... product as well? Can you talk about that idea?

SWG: So I profiled companies that have done this very well. And a couple of examples are BMW, and I don't know if many of you use the OXO kitchen utensil products. OXO's Grips are ideal for older adults who might have dexterity problems, the way that you can manipulate their products. But they weren't selling to older. They sell to everybody. And it happens to work for all age groups. And that is a stealth feature.

Same thing with BMW. Nobody wants a car that says older consumer. But it turns out, over 55 and older is the consumer who most often buys a BMW. And they realize that they needed accommodations to make it easier for an older driver, such as bigger dials, font, color contrast, ease of access into the car. But they're not selling this as an old person's car. They sell to a whole range in their market.

And what all these companies do effectively is they have intergenerational design teams that help develop products for older adults. And another area where we see stealth design is in home modifications now. Increasingly, people if they're renovating or building—and in some countries, this is mandated as part of universal design practice—but wider doorways, grab bars and, and bathrooms, bigger spaces, lighting. All of that shouldn't have to be done to scream out “older person lives here.” But these are good design practices to build in. And they're sort of selling that stealth, and this has become a whole new industry.

DM: Yeah. Let's talk about that from a company perspective, right? They're looking to identify products perhaps for this market. What are the good questions they should be asking themselves as they try to develop that strategy?

SWG: Well, if you're entering the market, the first thing you should be doing is thinking about what's the need. Don't tell somebody what they need. And there's a phrase in the industry called “design with, not for.” And that means having an intergenerational team that's helping you design products. We've often had innovation brainstorm groups in the course that I teach. And what's great is we have young entrepreneurs, business school students, meeting with older adults and getting feedback on what their needs and interests are. And concepts of designing with rather than for is so much better because you're understanding better what their needs are and not coming up with something that wouldn't be functional or useful to them.

DM: How's that experience been for the students? Has it been revelatory?

SWG: It has been. I mean one of the great quotes that came out of the course this year was why are earbuds hip-

DM: [laughs]

SWG: ... but hearing aids are not? [laughing] And, and it makes perfect sense, you know. And why shouldn't it be so that everybody who happens to have something in their ear is considered hip.

DM: You have this, this great mix, this generational mix . What are the good questions that students are bringing to this?

SWG: The students bring amazing questions about affordability.

DM: Yeah.

SWG: They're thinking all the time well, yes, a certain segment of the population is going to be able to afford all the products and services I might design for them. But who's going to pay for it? They bring up a lot of questions about policy. We are the only country that does not have an infrastructure for elder care. And they ask a lot about reimbursement mechanisms because Medicare for most people will not pay the services that they're going to need. Their final assignment was to create a new business concept. And one of my favorites was they took the Barry's Boot Camp model. And they called it Larry's, which would be for older adults.

DM: [laughs]

SWG: And it would be modified a little bit. And I thought that was a very special concept. But that's what we're seeing. By infusing this concept that people are going to live longer, but want to live healthier and going to need products and services to maintain their health, having them think about it in a new way is really exciting. But having them meet older adults in the classroom which are the DCI fellows gives them an infusion of new perspectives.

DM: Yeah. I love that. One of the things that we know or I know from reading your book is that women are the largest part of longevity market. How has that changed company approach and entrepreneurial approaches to the market? And what have you seen that's worked on that front?

SWG: Well, you know, back to Merrill Lynch and where financial services really matter, there's a about a million dollar wealth gap that most women have because they've often taken career breaks for caregiving for their children or for family members. And they're often the purchasers or the influencers. So there's a lot of effort now to understand how to reach them, how to find products and services that will support what they're doing either in caregiving, but throughout the life course.

And there are companies that are forming around this and organizations. One is called the Daughterhood, which I really love, which is ... when you hear that name and you've been a caregiver, it's usually a daughter or a daughter-in-law not that men aren't participating. But they are the majority of the caregivers. And it's trying to help them find the products and services they need.

But what is difficult in this environment is we don't have direct consumer channels that are easy yet to find women who are doing all the purchasing and influencing decisions in this market.

DM: You know, it's easy to fall prey to sort of ageist caricatures when you're doing product development into this market, right? So you know, some of the stereotypes might be that older stage consumers might be tech averse. They might be stuck in their ways, might be averse to change. How do you make sure, maybe from a culture perspective, that none of that sort of seeps into your thinking and your strategy?

SWG: That's such an important point because the stereotype is that all older adults don't know technology.

DM: Right.

SWG: Many, many, many are using—and particularly in part because of COVID virtually every older adult had to learn to use Zoom—but what isn't there yet is that older adults aren't always fluent in the latest technology. So elder adults may need to just learn it a little bit differently. Digital literacy, I think, is an incredibly important opportunity in this area. There are countries that offer digital literacy programs every year for all people over 50. So employers could be doing that for their older workers. And there are partnerships now being formed to help older adults become digitally literate because that is the only way you're going to be a successful ager.

So companies that recognize that they may have an older workforce but just needs some upskilling will make a dramatic change so that when they're thinking about products and services, they can incorporate those needs into product design and perhaps make the digital literacy component, you know, integrated as well.

DM: But is there a deeper cultural change, too that has to happen within a company to make sure that that doesn't seep in?

SWG: Yeah. Absolutely.

DM: Yeah.

SWG: And, and that means not mandating everybody leave at a certain age and keeping a multi-generational workforce that becomes really important. And many companies are starting to connect through organizations that are calling themselves the longevity pledge, pledging that you're not going to use ageist stereotypes in your marketing, that you're going to integrate older workers into your workforce and not have mandatory retirement. They may want more flexible work schedules. They might want to repurpose into different career paths. But integrating a five-stage five-generation workforce will be very important in this new longevity concept.

[music]

Stephanie: I'm curious what do you see as best practice especially in the sort of driven-professional context where there might be anxiety about opportunities for young executives coming up when there are senior executives who have a lot of wisdom and a lot to contribute who want to stay on and stay and be engaged? And so, I'd be curious what your wisdom is on best practice for kind of, I mean, beyond just mentoring but that intergenerational ability to bring the wisdom of multiple generations together and to provide roles for senior executives perhaps downshifting or... But again, I'd, I'd really love to hear your wisdom on that model.

SWG: I'm hearing that it's varied. You know, and law firms have certain practices. Universities used to have faculty be emeritus at a certain age, and it's going longer. So I think it's changing by industry. Certain fields within medicine or in the air industry.

But I think people are recognizing that older adults want to work longer and simultaneously want career paths. So what they're finding is more and more older adults may be looking for more flexibility. And they may not want to work the 40, 80-hour timeframe, whatever that number was. And so, that is a new way of accommodating it. They may not need health insurance benefits, you know, because they're on Medicare.

So there's a lot of different ways companies and institutions are thinking about the older worker—[that they] can provide so much value. And it's not the stereotype that they cost more because they're looking for different flexibility in their compensation packages and how they want to work. And that actually got reinforced by COVID by all age groups. People were looking for different kinds of flexibility. Remote work, to the extent that this continues to be, benefits older as much as it benefits younger and creates the opportunity for a different kind of planning of what a workforce looks like. So I think we're just at the beginning of this. But I'm actually optimistic this is going to be different and, and better.

[music]

Steve: Steve uh, of '90. So I have a younger brother. He's the smarter one in the family.

DM: [laughs]

Steve: He's a senior demographer at the Census Bureau. And what he tells me is that even though we're aging, in 20 years, we will not be as old as countries like Italy, Japan, Germany, et cetera are today. So what if anything can we learn from what's happening in those countries to deal with an issue that, you know, we're going to continue to see down the road?

SWG: Some of the model countries are Denmark, Singapore, Japan—where older adults are really valued. And we're seeing entire systems changed.

Our systems in this country have not changed for this older demographic world that we're going to be living in, in the US where there'll be more older adults than younger. As I mentioned earlier Denmark has digital literacy for their entire 50-plus population every year. They have working longer. They have pension systems that are being revised around working longer.

So changing a society is easier, obviously, when it's a smaller country. Ours is a little bit more complicated. But policies are going to make a big difference in this country. Making sure that there's enough money for all older adults to support healthy aging going forward. And a lot of other countries have done better in finding housing alternatives. 90% of people in the United States do not want to go to an assisted living facility or or segmented senior housing. They want intergenerational housing.

And so, these other countries have much more intergenerational components which I think will strengthen successful aging going forward.

[music]

Roy BIngham: My parents both lived into their 80s. And I'm just about to turn 60. And I was starting to think, "Maybe I'm on the coast into, you know, volunteering and that kind of thing." And then I read David Sinclair's book, Lifespan. And I've got a bit obsessed with this whole field [laughs] and hence starting a new business. And suddenly, I'm thinking I might live to be 120. You said 100. But he's talking 120 in our lifetimes.

SWG: Yeah.

Roy BIngham: And it completely changed the way I thought about the next 60 years. I think of a better second half. That's what I'm thinking about for myself and my wife as well. And then, that's the kind of thing that I think gets through to venture capitalists. And when they see someone like me and others like me and saying-

SWG: Yeah.

Roy Bingham: ... "Oh my god." You know, I've had another 60 years to do something really valuable. Are you noticing that? And what do you think?

SWG: I'm not seeing it yet in the VC community, but it's starting. The more they see the vibrancy of people who are 50, 60, and older and starting new things and contributing their wisdom and talent and being more successful in some ways than the 20, 30-year-old that will be a game changer. I think we're just at the beginning of seeing more VC come into it. And I think everybody should be looking forward to these next years.

We know that they can be your happiest years. We know they can be among your most productive. And I think it's still not known. I mean within the industry, it's known. But every time I talk about this, somebody said, "I never knew that." It's a new field. So talk about it. What I do at every cocktail party is I ask people, "You know, did you know you're going to live to 100?" You know, I wasn't using 120 yet. But I talk to my kids. [I] talk to all our students about it. And they have to rethink about what their career spans are going to look like as well.

So if it becomes a household topic the way that caregiving became a household topic during COVID for the first time, it was always kind of hidden. But it's out there that every family's going through it. And if every family needs a longevity plan and if every business needs a longevity plan and every person needs a longevity plan, if that becomes the norm, that would be an incredibly exciting way. And we have to then rethink all our institutions—education, as we said finance, work and travel, everything.

Skydeck is produced by the External Relations department at Harvard Business School and edited by Craig McDonald. It is available at iTunes and wherever you get your favorite podcasts. For more information or to find archived episodes, visit alumni.hbs.edu/skydeck.

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